Query12

#$&*

course Phy 121

10/1 10pm

If your solution to stated problem does not match the given solution, you should self-critique per instructions at

http://vhcc2.vhcc.edu/dsmith/geninfo/labrynth_created_fall_05/levl1_22/levl2_81/file3_259.htm

.

Your solution, attempt at solution. If you are unable to attempt a solution, give a phrase-by-phrase interpretation of the problem along with a statement of what you do or do not understand about it. This response should be given, based on the work you did in completing the assignment, before you look at the given solution.

012. `query 12

*********************************************

Question: `qQuery set 3 #'s 13-14 If an object of mass m1 rests on a frictionless tabletop and a mass m2 hangs over a good pulley by a string attached to the first object, then what forces act on the two-mass system and what is the net force on the system? What would be the acceleration of the system? How much would gravitational PE change if the hanging mass descended a distance `dy?

YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

Your solution:

m1 exerts a force on the table top and the tabletop exerts and equal and opposite force on m1. gravity exerts a force on m2.

Fnet = mass of m2 *9.8m/s^2.

acceleration would be 9.8m/s^2

PE = m2*9.8m/s^2 *`ds (in this case the `ds is equal to the distance between the hanging object and the ground)

PE would change m2 *9.8m/s^2 * (`ds-`dy) If we assume the direction of motion is downward, this change would be negative.

confidence rating #$&*:

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

.............................................

Given Solution:

`a** The net force on the system is the force of gravity on the suspended weight: Fnet = m2 * 9.8 m/s/s, directed downward.

Gravity also acts on m1 which is balanced by the upward force of table on this mass, so the forces on m1 make no contribution to Fnet.

Acceleration=net force/total mass = 9.8 m/s^2 * m2 / (m1+m2), again in the downward direction.

The change in gravitational PE is equal and opposite to the work done by gravity. This is the definition of change in gravitational PE.

If the mass m2 descends distance `dy then the gravitational force m * g and the displacement `dy are both downward, so that gravity does positive work m g `dy on the mass. The change in gravitational PE is therefore - m g `dy.

COMMON MISCONCEPTIONS AND INSTRUCTOR COMMENTS:

Misconception: The tension force contributes to the net force on the 2-mass system. Student's solution:

The forces acting on the system are the forces which keep the mass on the table, the tension in the string joining the two masses, and the weight of the suspended mass.

The net force should be the suspended mass * accel due to gravity + Tension.

INSTRUCTOR COMMENT:

String tension shouldn't be counted among the forces contributing to the net force on the system.

The string tension is internal to the two-mass system. It doesn't act on the system but within the system.

Net force is therefore suspended mass * accel due to gravity only

'The forces which keep the mass on the table' is too vague and probably not appropriate in any case. Gravity pulls down, slightly bending the table, which response with an elastic force that exactly balances the gravitational force. **

STUDENT COMMENT

I don't understand why m1 doesn't affect the net force. Surely it has to, if mass1 was 90kg, or 90g, then are they saying that the force would be the same regardless?

INSTRUCTOR RESPONSE

m1 has no effect on the net force in the given situation.

Whatever the mass on the tabletop, it experiences a gravitational force pulling it down, and the tabletop exerts an equal and opposite force pushing it up. So the mass of that object contributes nothing to the net force on the system.

The mass m1 does, however, get accelerated, so m1 does have a lot to do with how quickly the system accelerates. The greater the mass m1, the less accelerating effect the net force will have on the system.

Also if friction is present, the mass m1 is pulled against the tabletop by gravity, resulting in frictional force. The greater the mass m1, the greater would be the frictional force.

All these ideas are addressed in upcoming questions and exercises.

STUDENT COMMENT

I understand the first few parts of this problem, but I am still a little unsure about the gravitational PE.

I knew what information that was required to solve the problem, but I just thought the solution would be more that (-m2 * 9.8m/s^2 * ‘dy).

INSTRUCTOR RESPONSE

Only m2 is changing its altitude, so only m2 experiences a change in gravitational PE.

Equivalently, only m2 experiences a gravitational force in its direction of motion, so work is done by gravity on only m2.

STUDENT COMMENT

I forgot that PE = m * g * 'dy. And I did not think that the table exerting force on the mass took it out of the system. I understand the idea though.

INSTRUCTOR RESPONSE

the table doesn't take the mass out of the system, but it does counter the force exerted by gravity on that mass

so the total mass of the system is still the total of the accelerating masses, but the net force is just the force of gravity on the suspended mass, (since the system is said to be frictionless, there is no frictional force to consider)

SYNOPSIS

The change in gravitational PE is equal and opposite to the work done by gravity. This is the definition of change in gravitational PE.

If the mass m2 descends distance `dy then the gravitational force m * g and the displacement `dy are both downward, so that gravity does positive work m g `dy on the mass. The change in gravitational PE is therefore - m g `dy.

As you say,

`dw_noncons + `dPE + `dKE = 0

If `dW_noncons is zero, as is the case here (since there are no frictional or other nonconservative forces present), then

`dPE + `dKE = 0

and

`dKE = - `dPE.

In this case `dPE = - m g `dy so

`dKE = - ( - m g `dy) = m g `dy.

The signs are confusing at first, but if you just remember that signs are important these ideas will soon sort themselves out.

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

Self-critique (if necessary):Myimplied explanation for why m1 isn't counted in the net force was not accurate. I should haveat least mentioned the force of gravity on m1 instead of the force m1 exerts on the table.

When I calculated accleration I did so simply as the acceleration of gravity. I neglected to calculate in from F=m*a and I did not include m1 in the equation. I can now why it should be in there, but I'm still a little fuzzy on automaticaly assuming this since. I think I was swayed by my initial concept (mostly correct) that we woulnd't count m1 in the net force.

The PE is still a hard concept for me. I think I get the main concept of how it applies in this problem, but my fuzziness still won't allow me to discuss it in anything but clumsy language.

------------------------------------------------

Self-critique Rating:2

@&

A little more clarification on the nature of the system.

We take the system as the two masses and the string connecting them.

Gravity acts on both masses. However the table also acts on the mass on the table, and counters the gravitational force on that mass.

The tension in the string partially counters the gravitational force on the suspended mass, but the string is part of the system. The system is accelerated by the net force acting on it. Forces internal to the system, such as the string tension, do not have any effect on the acceleration of the system (among other things the tension pulls the two masses with equal forces in opposite directions). Internal forces act within, not on the system.

The force exerted by gravity on any object is the product of the mass of that object and the acceleration of gravity.

It follows from all of this that the net force on the system is equal to the force exerted by gravity on the suspended mass, but that the mass being accelerated by that net force is the total mass of the system. Hence its acceleration is less than that of gravity.

*@

*********************************************

Question: `qHow would friction change your answers to the preceding question?

YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

Your solution:

Friction would be another force to include in the forces acting on the system.

It would be included in the net force. It would be negative to the direction of motion.

This would change the acceleration of the system.

I want to say it would't afffect the PE, but `dW_nc_on is a factor in the equation that seems simple enough but I just can't seem to really wrap my head around...

`dw_noncons + `dPE + `dKE = 0

Since friction is nonconservative `dPE = -dKE -`dw_noncons

Since the friction here is negative and we are subtracting it it should raise the `dPE, but I can't grasp how that would be so.

confidence rating #$&*:

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

.............................................

Given Solution:

`a**Friction would act to oppose the motion of the mass m1 as it slides across the table, so the net force would be m2 * g - frictional resistance. **

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

Self-critique (if necessary):I got that part right, but I'm still not confident on how friction would affect the change in PE

???How would friction affect the change in PE part of the equation???

------------------------------------------------

Self-critique Rating:1

@&

PE changes as the system moves from one position to another.

Friction has no effect on the change in PE between two positions.

However friction does therefore have an effect on the change in KE.

*@

*********************************************

Question: `qExplain how you use a graph of force vs. stretch for a rubber band to determine the elastic potential energy stored at a given stretch.

YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

Your solution:

Since stretch is a measure of displacement. F * `ds equals work, which in this sense is stored as potential energy in the rubber band. So if you found the average altitude of the force (the midpoint of the line segment) and multiplied it by the width which in this case is `ds or stretch, you would get the PE stored in the stretched rubber band.

confidence rating #$&*:

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

.............................................

Given Solution:

`a** If we ignore thermal effects, which you should note are in fact significant with rubber bands and cannot in practice be ignored if we want very accurate results, PE is the work required to stretch the rubber band. This work is the sum of all F * `ds contributions from small increments `ds from the initial to the final position. These contributions are represented by the areas of narrow trapezoids on a graph of F vs. stretch. As the trapezoids get thinner and thinner, the total area of these trapezoids approaches, the area under the curve between the two stretches.

So the PE stored is the area under the graph of force vs. stretch. **

STUDENT QUESTION

I am still a little confused about if the work is done by the rubber bands, or if the work is done one the rubber bands.

Would you explain the difference?

INSTRUCTOR RESPONSE

This example might be helpful:

If you pull the end of an anchored rubber band to the right, it exerts a force to the left, in the direction opposite motion, so it does negative work during the process.

You, on the other hand, pull in the direction of motion and do positive work on the rubber band.

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

Self-critique (if necessary):I think I get the general concept here, but I don’t understand the part about the thin trapezoids added together.

???I just see it as one big trapezoid. Why does it have to be the sum of the area of many smaller trapezoids???

------------------------------------------------

Self-critique Rating:2

@&

If the force vs. length is a straight line, one big trapezoid is sufficient.

If it curves, then you have to divide the graph up into smaller intervals. If the intervals are short enough the curvature on any given interval has very little effect on its area, so as intervals shrink the trapezoidal approximation becomes increasingly accurate.

*@

*********************************************

Question: `q Does the slope of the F vs stretch graph represent something? Does the area under the curve represent the work done? If so, is it work done BY or work done ON the rubber bands?

YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

Your solution: The slope represents Force/`ds which should tell me something, but its not coming to me. If the number in the denominator was an area, we would have a pressure, but that’s not the case.

The area under the graph is work done. But work done by what? I think in this case it is work done on the rubber band because its positive and the work done ON a rubber band is positive.

confidence rating #$&*:

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

.............................................

Given Solution:

`a** The rise of the graph is change in force, the run is change in stretch. So slope = rise / run = change in force / change in stretch, which the the average rate at which force changes with respect to stretch. This basically tells us how much additional force is exerted per unit change in the length of the rubber band.

The area is indeed with work done (work is integral of force with respect to displacement).

If the rubber band pulls against an object as is returns to equilibrium then the force it exerts is in the direction of motion and it therefore does positive work on the object as the object does negative work on it.

If an object stretches the rubber band then it exerts a force on the rubber band in the direction of the rubber band's displacement, and the object does positive work on the rubber band, while the rubber band does negative work on it. **

STUDENT QUESTION

Okay, so are you saying that the rubber band could either be doing work or getting work done on it?

I believe I understand this, but just wanted to double check.

INSTRUCTOR RESPONSE

Yes, and that depends on whether the rubber band is being stretched, or contracting.

When it is being stretched positive work is being done on the rubber band.

After being released the rubber band does positive work on the object to which its force is applied.

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

Self-critique (if necessary):I was thinking that force/strech was going to turn out to be some really important concept in Physics, so I was reaching for something more. I get the concept here.

I think I’m starting to get the work done on and work done by the rubber band, but I have to stay on top of it and really sort of mime it out to keep track.

------------------------------------------------

Self-critique Rating:3

@&

The slope represents change in force / change in length, which is the average rate at which force changes with respect to length.

This is an important concept. It tells us how 'stiff' the elastic object is.

*@

PREVIOUS STUDENT RESPONSE TO REQUEST FOR COMMENTS

There is a whole lot of stuff concerning Newton’s laws of motion and there applications to force and acceleration. They will take some serious application to master. I understand what potential energy is, I understand that it is decreasing as kinetic energy increase, but I don’t understand how to measure it. Its like an invisible force, and the only relation to which I can apply it is in the context of gravity. If we have a 1kg object and we hold it 5meters off the ground, then according to the equation above

PE = m*g*`dy this would be

PE = 1kg * 9.8m/s^2 * 5m = 49 kg * m^2/s^2

my algebra is so bad but I still cant see this contributing to a useful measurement or unit. I don’t know how to swing it so it’ll give me a newton, PE has to be measured in newtons right because it is indeed a force?

Ohhh I get it now!! I remember, a kg times a m/s^2 is a newton, and a newton times a meter is a Joule!!! So this is a valid measurement, which would make that equation valid, the potential energy for the above circumstance would be 49 Joules then.

INSTRUCTOR RESPONSE

Very good.

Remember that F_net = m a

If you multiply mass m in kg by acceleration a in m/s^2, you get the force in Joules.

Of course when you multiply kg by m/s^2 you get kg m/s^2.

This is why a Newton is equal to a kg m / s^2.

Work being the product of a force and a displacement will therefore have units of Newtons * meters, or kg * m/s^2 * m, which gives us kg m^2 / s^2.

Query Add comments on any surprises or insights you experienced as a result of this assignment.

The insight I gained here was a very small but positive gain in some knowledge of work done on and work done by an object. This is not coming easily to me.

"

Self-critique (if necessary):

------------------------------------------------

Self-critique rating:

&#This looks good. See my notes. Let me know if you have any questions. &#