Assignment11 Open Query

course Phy231

4/1/10 11am

011. `query 11*********************************************

Question: `q set 3 problems 15-19. Explain the difference between a conservative and a nonconservative force, and give an

example of each.

YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

Your solution:

A conservative force conserves energy. An example of this would be like a roller coaster being pulled up an incline. Once

it reaches the top of the incline it can slide down the other side on its own. Its returning the energy back...

A nonconservative force doesn't conserve energy. An example of this is friction. Extra work is being done to pull the

roller coaster up the hill against friction. You won't regain this when the coaster comes back down the hill.

confidence rating #$&*

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

.............................................

Given Solution:

`a** A conservative force conserves energy--you can get your energy back.

For example:

Push something massive up a hill, then climb back down the hill. The object, by virtue of its position, has the potential to

return most of your energy to you, after regaining it as it rolls back down. You will have done work against gravity as you

move along a path up the hill, and gravity can return the energy as it follows its path back down the hill. In this sense

gravity conserves energy, and we call it a conservative force.

However, there is some friction involved--you do extra work against friction, which doesn't come back to you. And some of the

energy returned by gravity also gets lost to friction as the object rolls back down the hill. This energy isn't conserved--

it's nonconservative.

Another more rigorous definition of a conservative force is that a force is conservative if the work done to get from one

point to another independent of the path taken between those two points.

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

Self-critique (if necessary):ok

------------------------------------------------

Self-critique rating #$&*ok

*********************************************

Question: `qIf a system does work W1 against a nonconservative force while conservative forces do work W2 on the system, what are the change in the KE and PE of the system? Explain your reasoning from a commonsense point of view, and include a simple example involving a rubber band, a weight, an incline and friction.

YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

Your solution:

I'm a little confused by this question.....If W1 is doing work against nonconservative forces, and W2 is work done by

conservative forces, aren't these forces in the same direction??? So shouldn't both of these be positive???

confidence rating #$&*

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

.............................................

Given Solution:

`a** `dKE is equal to the NET work done ON the system.

The KE of a system changes by an amount equal to the net work done on a system.

If work W1 is done BY the system against a nonconservative force then work -W1 is done ON the system by that force.

`dPE is the work done BY the system AGAINST conservative forces, and so is the negative of the work done ON the system BY

nonconservative forces.

*

In the present case W2 stands for the work done on the system by conservative forces, so

`dPE = - W2. PE decreases, thereby tending to increase KE.

So work -W1 is done ON the system by nonconservative forces and work W2 is done ON the system by a conservative force.

*

The NET work done ON the system is therefore `dW_net_on = -W1 + W2.

The KE of the system therefore changes by `dKE = -W1 + W2.

If the nonconservative force is friction and the conservative force is gravity, then since the system must do positive work

against friction, W1 must be positive and hence the -W1 contribution to `dKE tends to decrease the KE.

e.g., if the system does 50 J of work against friction, then there is 50 J less KE increase than if there was no friction.

If the work done by the conservative force on the system is positive,

e.g., gravity acting on an object which is falling downward, then since force and displacement in the same direction implies

positive work, gravity does positive work and the tendency will be to increase the KE of the system and W2 would be positive.

A couple of numerical examples:

If W2 is 150 J and W1 is 50 J, then in terms of the above example of a falling object, this would mean that gravity tends

to increase the KE by 150 J but friction dissipates 50 J of that energy, so the change in KE will be only 100 J. This is

consistent with `dW_net_ON = -W1 + W2 = -50 J + 150 J = 100 J.

The previous example was of a falling object. If the object was rising (e.g., a ball having been thrown upward but not

yet at its highest point), displacement and gravitational force would be in opposite directions, and the work done by gravity

would be negative.

In this case W2 might be, say, -150 J. Then `dKE would be -150 J - 50 J = -200 J.

The object would lose 200 J of KE. This would of course only be possible if it had at least 200 J of KE to lose.

For example, in order to lose 200 J of KE, the ball thrown upward would have to be moving upward fast enough that it has

200 J of KE.

STUDENT COMMENT

I find this really confusing. Could this be laid out in another way?

INSTRUCTOR RESPONSE

If you find this confusing at this point, you will have a lot of company. This is a challenge for most students, and these

ideas will occupy us for a number of assignments. There is light at the end of the tunnel: It takes awhile, but once you

understand these ideas, the basic ideas become pretty simple and even obvious, and once understood they are usually (but

not always) fairly easy to apply. This could be laid out differently, but would probably be equally confusing to any given

student. Different students will require clarification of different aspects of the situation.If you tell me what you do and

do not understand about the given solution, then I can clarify in a way that will make sense to you.

I also expect that in the process of answering subsequent questions, these ideas will become increasingly clear to you.

In any case feel free to insert your own interpretations, questions, etc. into a copy of this document (mark insertions with

&&&& so I can locate them), and submit a copy.

STUDENT QUESTION

If the system goes against the force will this always make it negative?

INSTRUCTOR COMMENT

If a force and the displacement are in opposite directions, then the work done by that force is negative.

If the system moves in a direction opposite the force exerted BY the system, the work done BY the system is negative.

Note, however, that if this is the case then any equal and opposite force exerted ON the system will be in the direction of

motion, so the force will do positive work ON the system.

A separate document related to this problem is located in the document

*

work_on_vs_by_dKE_dPE_etc_questions_answers.htm

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

Self-critique (if necessary):I think I have a better understanding after reading your explanation. The question at first was

very confusing. I have confidence that I will understand it better soon.

------------------------------------------------

Self-critique rating #$&*3

*********************************************

Question: `qIf the KE of an object changes by `dKE while the total nonconservative force does work `dW_nc on the object,

by how much does the PE of the object change?

YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

Your solution:

If 'dKE+'dPE-W_nc=0,

then 'dPE=-dKE+W_nc

confidence rating #$&*

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

.............................................

Given Solution:

`a** We have `dKE + `dPE + `dWbyNoncons = 0: The total of KE change of the system, PE change of the system and work done

by the system against nonconservative forces is zero.

Regarding the object at the system, if W_nc is the work done ON the object by nonconservative forces then work -W_nc is

done BY the object against nonconservative forces, and therefore `dWnoncons_on = -W_nc.

We therefore have `dKE + `dPE - W_nc = 0 so that `dPE = -`dKE + W_nc. **

Equivalently, the work-energy theorem can be stated

*

`dW_ON_nc = `dKE + `dPE

In this example the work done on the system by nonconservative forces is labeled W_nc, without the subscript ON and without

the `d in front. However it means the same thing, so the above becomes

W_nc = `dKE + `dPE

and we solve for `dPE to get

`dPE = -`dKE + W_nc

STUDENT COMMENT

I�m still confused on how to understand when the energy is done on the object and when the energy is done against the object.

INSTRUCTOR RESPONSE

In an application, that can be the difficult question.

However in this case it is stated that W_nc is the work done by nonconservative forces ON the object.

STUDENT COMMENT:

I had the same logic as the given solution, however I got �dPE = -�dKE � W_nc as the answer. I some how got an extra negative.

Maybe Work can only be positive�.??

INSTRUCTOR RESPONSE:

In this problem W_nc was specified as the work done on the object by nonconservative forces.

You have to be careful about whether W_nc is ON the system or BY the system.

You used the equation `dKE + `dPE + W_nc = 0; however that equation applies to the work done BY the system against

nonconservative forces. Written more specifically the equation you used would be

�dKE + �dPE + W_nc_BY = 0 so

`dPE = - `dKE - `W_nc_BY.

W_nc_BY = - W_nc_ON so `dPE = - `dKE + W_nc_ON.

STUDENT RESPONSE WITH INSTRUCTOR'S COMMENTS (instructor comments in bold):

ok, so dke + dPe - W_nc = 0

W_nc is total nonconservative forces doing work on the object,

Right up to here this increases kinetic energy and decreases potential energy.

there is no assumption about the sign of any of these quantities; any quantity could be positive or negative, as long as

`dKE + `dPE - `dW_nc_on = 0

If `dW_nc_ON is positive then `dPE + `dKE is positive, but this could occur with positive `dKE and `dPE, or with a negative

`dPE with lesser magnitude than a positive `dKE, or with a negative `dKE with lesser magnitude than a positive `dPE. All you

would know is that `dKE + `dPE would be positive.

If `dW_nc_ON is negative then `dPE + `dKE is negative, but this doesn't tell you anything about the sign of either of the two

quantities. All we can say is that `dPE = `dW_nc_on - `dKE.

Since it is decreasing the potential energy it is negative. dKE is the kinetic energy which is positive since the potential

energy is increased.

If `dW_nc_on = 0, for example, an increase in either KE or PE implies a decrease in the other. KE would increase due to a

decrease in PE (e.g., if you drop an object), while an increase in PE would be associated with a decrease in KE (e.g., an

object thrown upward gains PE as it loses KE).

So an increase in KE tends to decrease PE, though `dW_nc_on can be such that KE and PE both increase.

In this problem we solve for PE. So that dPE= - dKE + W_nc.

As potential energy increasess kinetic energy decreases and the non conservative work is positive because it is going with

the direction of force more so than against it.

An increase in PE could be the result of loss of KE and/or positive work done by nonconservative forces.

PE could also increase along with KE as long as `dW_nc_on is positive and large enough (e.g., a rocket increases both PE and

KE due to nonconservative forces (the nonconservative forces result from ejecting fuel at high speed, i.e., from the rocket

engines).

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

Self-critique (if necessary):ok

------------------------------------------------

Self-critique rating #$&*ok

*********************************************

Question: `qGive a specific example of such a process.

YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

Your solution:

&&&&&&I read your example first, and it makes no sense to me. Your force and the friction does 300J of work on the object....

your force should be positive and friction should be negative right....so did you just add these two numbers together and

get a positve number??? How did you know that is KE changed by 200J.....did you just make that up or did you mathmatically

figure that out??? How does your 300J increase the KE by 200J??? I understand that if 'dKE is only 200J then the other

100J is 'dPE....I'm just not sure about the rest.&&&&&

confidence rating #$&*

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

.............................................

Given Solution:

`a** For example suppose I lift an object weighing 50 N and in the process the total nonconservative force (my force and

friction) does +300 J of work on the object while its KE changes by +200 J.

*

The 300 J of work done by my force and friction is used to increase the KE by 200 J, leaving 100 J to be accounted for.

More formally, `dW_noncons_ON = +300 J and `dKE = +200 J. Since `dW_noncons_ON = `dKE + `dPE,

So +300 J = +200 J + `dPE, and it follows that `dPE = +100 J.

*

This 100 J goes into the PE of the object. **

Your question should logically follow the given solution to which it refers. No problem; it was easy to copy and paste it here. Your document will 'read' better with my response following your answer, which now follows the given solution. My notes are inserted in bold within your question.

&&&&&&I read your example first, and it

makes no sense to me. Your force and the friction does 300J of work on the

object....

your force should be positive and friction should be negative right....so did

you just add these two numbers together and

get a positve number???

Right.  No numbers were assumed

for the work I do and the work done by friction.  These two forces make up

the nonconservative force on the system, and we just assumed a single total. 

If you wish you can assume, say, that I do 350 J of work and friction does -50

J.  However the breakdown of the individual nonconservative forces isn't

the point here.  All we really need is the total work done on the object by

nonconservative forces.

How did you know that is KE changed by

200J.....did you just make that up or did you mathmatically

figure that out???

The phrase starts with 'for example,

then reads

'suppose I lift an object weighing 50 N and in

the process the total nonconservative force (my force and friction) does +300 J

of work on the object while its KE changes by +200 J'

So all these quantities are simply

assumed, for the sake of a numerical example.

How does your 300J increase the KE by

200J??? I understand that if 'dKE is only 200J then the other

100J is 'dPE....I'm just not sure about the rest.

There is no specified connection

between the 300 J of work I do and the 200 J of KE increase.  We just

assume these quantities.  Once we have these quantities (in this case,

simply by assumption; in other problems we will often find these quantities from

other information), they dictate the PE increase.

There are a number of ways to think

about this intuitively.  For example: